John Bowen Synth Design

Personally, I am quite interested by a Solaris expander because:
- more affordable because of sparing on keyboard and UI
- easier to integrate here as I do not have place for another keyboard
- easier to carry when moving around

I also thought the software could be translated to Xite plug-in format but as 96 KHz optimized code is the only version available, this would be a HUGE job to achieve, so I forgot about it.

But the Xite could also be used for adding external FX in multi mode...

Do you any draft price tag preliminary cost estimate on the 1 U rack, John ?

HUROLURA wrote:Personally, I am quite interested by a Solaris expander because:
- more affordable because of sparing on keyboard and UI
- easier to integrate here as I do not have place for another keyboard
- easier to carry when moving around

Confirmed,- so when it comes it will be welcome.

HUROLURA wrote: But the Xite could also be used for adding external FX in multi mode...

This is what XITE-1 is for me, thinking about usage in live scenarios:

Replacing hardware mixer and output splitter
Replacing external AUX FX boxes
Offers insert FX for the SCOPE mixer channels
Offers cool synths, a sampler playing AKAI and a Vocoder
Offers VDAT flying in some backing tracks (if urgently necessary),- records direct to HD too.
Offers WAVE source for media players to entertain the audience before performance begins
Offeres ASIO source for usage of additional VSTi like NI Kontakt and/or Phead Reason 6.x

I have a AD/DA connected to XITE, offering more analog inputs for outboard/ hardware instruments.

Solaris keyboard or rack SPDIF (main) out, I´d connect to the AES/EBU in of XITE and Solaris single outputs to the converter´s AD inputs ...

Now, w/ a rackmount Solaris, that would be the most compact and superior sonic quality rig I´ve ever used, being controlled by MIDI keyboard controller(s) and any iOS or Android based tablet PC (as a touch screen surface) once SCOPE 6 supporting OSC is released.

I own a bunch of MIDI keyboards, being out of warranty since a long time.
Performing modifications to these is without any risk,- so I plan building Alyseum ALeX into these, a mod I wouldn´t do w/ any new keyboard under warranty.

Then buy a network switch (Netgear Prosafe GS108), connect keyboard(s) and laptop running SCOPE & VST to that switch, each by 1 CAT5 cable and run only 2 balanced audio cables from XITE to active speakers or IEM (and FOH, stage monitors, recording facility using XITE AES/EBU out and balanced analog lines).
For the gear w/ standard MIDI trio connectors, I´d use a Alyseum AL-22 or AL-88 and also connected to that ethernet switch by Cat 5 cable.

So YES, a rackmount Solaris module would be the most welcome to me !!!
I can go w/ a small rack and 2 keyboard controllers (88-weighted keys and 76-keys synth action) then.

Hein

HUROLURA wrote:Do you any draft price tag preliminary cost estimate on the 1 U rack, John ?

No idea...I'd have to first decide what hardware changes if any would be needed, then ask Sonic Core about costs in making the software changes needed, and get estimates on the case design & prototyping,
Then you have to add the development costs of a software interface, which I suspect would be a 12 month project if done in Germany. Not to mention additional market research as to how many units one could sell, as I've been trying to do informally.

People don't think about all of these costs when asking about "an easy rack version" of something. You can't just add up a parts cost list and say what the price would be...you have to factor in the development costs and so forth, and see if it would all be worth it in the end.

I know you have to include the development, design and marketing cost. And you wouldn't be able to know how to split such costs as long as you do not know how many unit you could sell.
And the number of unit you could sell also depend on the final user price... Vicious circle, or maybe just vicious rotor...

My personal 1999 € / $ 2500 estimate was based on including 25% of the total cost for such cost.

But I don't understand what you mean regarding the software interface. Do you mean you would provide a software editor with the rack ?

HUROLURA wrote:But I don't understand what you mean regarding the software interface. Do you mean you would provide a software editor with the rack ?

Yes, of course! You couldn't sell a 'blind' rack unit without some way for the user to edit presets.

HUROLURA wrote:

My personal 1999 € / $ 2500 estimate was based on including 25% of the total cost for such cost.

Don´t forget EUR 1999.- would be incl. VAT in europe and it would be probably the suggested retail price too.
But if you make it more expensive, the price difference between Solaris keyboard and the rack version eventually becomes too small.

I think, it all depends on usage of the already existing components from Solaris keyboard for the rack version.
Let´s say some kind of "take a 19inch box, drill some holes and make some cutouts, throw in the circuit boards incl. connections, print the front panel and sell".
But I doubt that´s what it really is.

HUROLURA wrote: But I don't understand what you mean regarding the software interface. Do you mean you would provide a software editor with the rack ?

If the/a Solaris rack should not be for Solaris keyboard users only and because of lack of any display and data input devices on a "blackbox", there MUST be a software editor application, it possibly running on different OS like iOS, Android (for the touch screen tablet PCs), Mac OS X and Win XP / 7.
And if that exists in 32Bits the users come and whine because there´s no 64Bit version and so on.
And there are Horulura and Hein wanting one for SCOPE 5,- later 6,- too ...

It´s probably not to materialize using standard MIDI CCs only because Solaris has much more parameters than MIDI CC numbers are existing.

It must be not an easy task.
My experience w/ the Soundtower Editor for Kurzweil PC3/PC3K is, it´s a worthless and nearly unusable piece of s**t.
Just an example, even it´s free and you´re free not to use it, and there´s no rack version,- so you have the haptics.

As much as I want a Solaris rack version,- if there isn´t the possibility to make it a cheap derivate of the Solaris keyboard and release it to the market quickly because of lots of changes to do to the hardware and long developing process for the software, I understand it´s best for J.B. Synth Design to pump money into improvements for Solaris keyboard instrument 1st.
That might be cheaper too and faster in addition.

To be fair,- there are also these customers who pre-ordered and payed for the keyboard and they deserve updates and improvements !

As a result, we might see MIDI multi mode and some more much earlier for the keyboard instrument.

According to the/a software editor/bank manager app,- it also should be done w/ help of the keyboard 1st.
It´s the same functionality, even it´s not necessary for the keyboard,- and if it works it works for the rack version too.
But then and if it´s for the keyboard 1st,- the only improvement is if it works as a VST/AU pluging too to control the keyboard from your DAW sequencer ...

You see,- there comes up more and more ...

The more I think of it, I come to the conclusion it would be nice to have a rack version but it might end as an experiment or desaster for J.B. Synth design.

Hein

MIDI CC is not really a problem as Solaris already use NRPN messages rather than simple MIDI CC.
NRPN provide more than 16000 possibility so it should be enough.

Transmitting one preset from the Solaris keyboard to an external rack would take 1 second.
Is there currently any other MIDI messages transmitted from the MIDI out apart from the NRPN (sysEx ?) ?

HUROLURA wrote:MIDI CC is not really a problem as Solaris already use NRPN messages rather than simple MIDI CC.
NRPN provide more than 16000 possibility so it should be enough.
Transmitting one preset from the Solaris keyboard to an external rack would take 1 second.

O.k., didn´t know that and then it might be easier to create a software editor/bank manager app.

HUROLURA wrote: Is there currently any other MIDI messages transmitted from the MIDI out apart from the NRPN (sysEx ?) ?

Well, I wondered if diving into SysEx would be necessary when creating a software editor ...

John ?

Hein

Easier in some way but remember there are around 1000 parameters so still a lot to do.
Rather than inventing a new approach regarding the way to design sounds for Solaris with a software editor, I would rely on the work already done on the keyboard front panel. Maybe it would be possible to re-use some part of the Blackfin code with just a kind of LCD emulation module to display values. Just as if you had a "virtual control panel".

My question regarding Sysex was more to know wether the few missing parameters would be already available on the current Solaris (oscillator and filter type for example, then preset storing/loading commands).

i personally would prefer if john would continue developing the OS of the solaris instead of doing a rack version. no interest in a rack and the related, substantial work.

if any hardware development at all, then rather a completely different device (twisted sampler? FX unit?) instead of repackaging the solaris and spending time on that.

proposing john how much a rack unit should cost (even to the detail of considering the VAT etc.) seems completely over the top at the moment. i believe john knows best how much such a unit would cost if he would decide to build it, right...?

I tend to agree with regarding Solaris improvement. The idea was just to think if there was an easy and quick way to broaden the Solaris user base. Actually, this would help levering founds for further development.
The point was to think about a solution for people either missing the money to buy the Solaris as it is now, or missing space to host big synth, or just needing something more compact.

As already discussed on another topic, when the first units were released, a desktop Solaris is quite difficult to achieve and probably wouldn't cost much less than the keyboard. Redesigning the user interface to achieve something more compact would require a lot of work and would spoil the concept of the Solaris itself.

To avoid designing a new hardware, using the same board as the keyboard would be a good idea. Same board would mean same OS, higher figures when manufacturing the boards so more founds to John Bowen to push forward the Solaris development. The blind 1 U rack unit would be the easiest: limited development cost, so limited risk on that, leaving most of the time and money focused on the Solaris OS.

I am still wondering if the control software should be provided with the blind unit.
Obviously, this makes sense but would also make such a unit less future proof (requiring update to support new host OS update).
Launching a 12 months software editor design project is probably too much. Maybe an open source editor would be a better idea. Or something different ...

But I completely agree that such a 1U rack unit should be designed only if it helps the keyboard to go further rather than spending too much time and energy for something that doesn't bring back much to the main product. All the other feature regarding multimode support are more OS improvement and would also be something good for the keyboard.

The idea behind the mockup and price estimate was more to bring something to the discussion. You cannot ask people if they would be ready to buy something like this without a few pictures and price idea. Personally, I would be ready to buy such a unit for such a price even though I would also have to find a solution for sound edition as one of the thing I also like is the fact the Solaris can be used without any computer ...

What I would'nt mind is an Ipad app that is an editor for the Solaris!

matocaster wrote:What I would'nt mind is an Ipad app that is an editor for the Solaris!

I agree! Can you write one for us?

Maybe...

Provided everything would be available for external control from a MIDI message (either CC, NRPN, or SySex...). And a lot is already in the NRPN list... That was the reason why I ask if there was any Sysex beside the huge NRPN list ...

It is possible to request sysex dumps. I can send you the details in a Private message.